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Poster: Finster Baby Date: Nov 7, 2012 11:13am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forget ObamaCare -- Let's just rely on ambulances and emergency rooms!

I have compassion for others and I do help others out. I just would like to decide for myself who needs / gets my help and compassion and not let the federal government decide for me. Face it, the federal government's record on deciding who needs assistance isn't very good.

We absolutely live in an entitlement society. Welfare is a way of life for far too many people in this country.
Do i believe that there are people that genuinely need the assistance? absolutely. But the gap has been quickly closing between those that need a helping hand and those that are just looking for a hand out. The fed does a terrible job of weeding out those that abuse the system and that pisses me off.

I do stand for something. i stand for personal liberty and following the constitution. Most of the things discussed in this thread should be done on the state level and not the federal level as is outlined in the 10th amendment to the constitution. EDucation, healthcare, welfare. The fed has no business being involved in any of it.


Nothing wrong with collecting unemployment. You paid into it, you collected when you needed it. Unemployment is administered on a state level and not the federal level, just as it should be.

As I said, i have no problem helping others. I just have a major issue with the Gov taking my money and using it to help those that don't really need the help. And if you don't think that there is alot of that going on, you live in a different country than I do.

And again, my stance isn't about any "social darwinism".
It's about the fact that we have a very well written document that outlines the way this country is supposed to be governed. And the fact that our politicians are ignoring it more and more, and we the people are allowing them to do it, is what is sending this country down the crapper. And even sadder is the fact that most citizens don't even realize it is happening. Give up a little liberty for some free shit? sure, no problem. Let us know when you have some more free shit you want to give us. We have some more of our liberties to spare......




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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffMonte B Cowboy Date: Nov 7, 2012 1:33pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forget ObamaCare -- Let's just rely on ambulances and emergency rooms!

Re: "Unemployment is administered on a state level and not the federal level, just as it should be." Wrong, but only partially wrong. Extended unemployment benefits are passed by US Congress and funded at the Fed level.

Re: "I just have a major issue with the Gov taking my money and using it to help those that don't really need the help." I totally agree with you!

Fort Collins City Council just voted 7-to-0 on Oct 16, 2012 to pass a huge Taxpayer Givaway to Avago Technologies here (formerly HP) for $4.5 million! So I emailed them my comments, and I spoke up at their council meeting:
STAFF RECOMMENDATION says:
"Staff recommends adoption of this Resolution."

BOARD / COMMISSION RECOMMENDATION says:
"Negotiations of the planned Avago Technologies expansion and related Business Investment Agreement were conducted confidentially."

PUBLIC OUTREACH says:
"Negotiations of the planned Avago Technologies expansion and related Business Assistance package were conducted confidentially."

I am telling you that Avago makes power amplifier components for Apple's iPad 3 and the iPhone 5. We are talking about production levels on the order of tens of millions of units. As far as I know, these Avago components are being made for Apple in the same Fort Collins facility you are citing in your proposal. None of Apple's devices are made in the USA.

Hock Tan is Avago's CEO and president. On Aug 17 of this year Avago held a public teleconference about its Q3 profits. That's when Hock Tan reported, "Revenue from our industrial and consumer target markets were a little stronger than we expected. And for the last two quarters, we've disclosed that Foxconn was at greater than 10% of this revenue, and that continued again this quarter."

Fort Collins City Council passed a resolution recently proclaiming "Corporations are not People."

Now you should pass a resolution proclaiming "Workers are People." I am asking you to make a $5 million tax investment instead, in the Avago Tax Incentive, if you are planning to vote Yes on it. Use the extra half a million dollars to teach the public about what is actually going on with Foxconn and Avago. You should be doing much more public outreach about this.

Approximately twenty Foxconn workers have committed suicide at work in China due to enormous pressure, long hours, and squalid living conditions where they work. They were leaping to their deaths from Foxconn building rooftops. This has been reported by the mainstream press. Foxconn and Apple addressed this issue by installing anti-suicide safety nets around all their buildings at every Foxconn facility.

Due to unsafe accumulations and buildups, aluminum dust explosions have killed Foxconn workers in China who were making cases for Apple's iPads. The explosion that occurred at Foxconn's Chengu plant on May 20, 2011 killed three workers, and more workers were maimed.

On Sept 24 this year a riot involving 2,000 Foxconn workers broke out at a factory in Taiyuan, Shanxi Province, after security guards beat up workers. It was reported that 5,000 police were sent to this Foxconn factory. 80,000 people work there. The iPhone 5 was being made here. 40 people were injured.

On Oct 5 this year a strike occurred at Foxconn's Zhengzhou factory in China. Why? Apple placed enormous pressure on quality control inspectors to reduce tiny blemishes after they appeared on some iPhone 5 units. These inspectors pressured workers to do impossible work they were not trained to do. Instead, the workers beat up the quality inspectors. The Foxconn managers ignored this. That led to the quality control inspectors going out on strike. iPhone 5 production halted one or more days.

Foxconn pays their workers slave wages. They often 16 hours per day, six days per week. They live in dormitories on-campus, often in dismal conditions. Apple knows their workers are very stressed out. There is extraordinary pressure to produce high volumes of units with zero defects. Workers must do the same tasks over and over for long periods of time, and they are treated like animals.

At the same time this is going on, the City of Fort Collins are directing staff to create and promote software Apps that run on these devices. Slave workers are manufacturing them. They live and work in concentration camps. This is disgusting to me. Now you are asking us to pay another $4.5 million. I am urging you to pass my "Workers are People" resolution. Give Avago $5 million to achieve this goal - if you are going to give them any Tax Incentive. Thank you.
I think if we started solving our using-workers-as-slaves issues, the debt-crisis you and Mando speak of will evaporate.

I believe we should be making most of our own basic necessities (the more, the better) locally wherever and whenever we can, especially food, clothing, and clean renewable energy.

This post was modified by Monte B Cowboy on 2012-11-07 21:33:14

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Poster: Mandojammer Date: Nov 7, 2012 2:50pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forget ObamaCare -- Let's just rely on ambulances and emergency rooms!

"I think if we started solving our using-workers-as-slaves issues, the debt-crisis you and Mando speak of will evaporate."

Not a chance. On the contrary, if you solve the worker issue, you likely generate more revenue in the form of both corporate taxes and personal income tax for the Feds to spend. Since they deliberately plan a budget that spends 40% more than they take in each year in revenue, the only thing that happens is the debt can continues to get kicked down the road.

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Poster: Skobud Date: Nov 7, 2012 12:28pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forget ObamaCare -- Let's just rely on ambulances and emergency rooms!

I hear you, but I still disagree. How could you possibly know who really needs help and who does not? You're assuming and generalizing your opinion and presenting it as fact. You can't have it both ways.

We disagree and that’s fine, but when you promote health care for only those who can pay - survival of the fittest - you are promoting Social Darwinism.

Superior (ability to pay) defeats inferior (those who cannot afford it). Your stance is absolutely Darwinist insofar as what you have posted in this thread.

I don't pretend to have the answer. I just choose to believe there are very smart people working on these issues facing us. Conspiracy theories and what not just add to the insane political climate. The country is as polarized as it has ever been in my lifetime, and I’m 43. I think you will see more good come out of this healthcare issue than you might think. The more divisive we are the less we get done. I think that's exactly why we are where we are, as a country, on a fundamental level.

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Poster: Finster Baby Date: Nov 8, 2012 5:27am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forget ObamaCare -- Let's just rely on ambulances and emergency rooms!

I hear you, but I still disagree. How could you possibly know who really needs help and who does not? You're assuming and generalizing your opinion and presenting it as fact. You can't have it both ways.


So, what you are saying is that government knows better than me how to best use my money? And, make no mistake. It is my money. and yours. and his, and his, and hers and....
It is not the government's money. But, they certainly act is if it is.
Please tell me that you are not on board with letting government decide the best way to spend our money. Please tell me that you agree with me that we should be free to decide the best use of "our" money. Please tell me that you agree that it is "our" money and not the government's money.

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Poster: Skobud Date: Nov 8, 2012 5:50am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forget ObamaCare -- Let's just rely on ambulances and emergency rooms!

No I dont agree. Your argument makes no sense to me. We have elections so we can vote for the people who, among many other things, decide how best to spend tax dollars.

I hate to break it to ya, but once taxes are taken out of your check it aint your money anymore. It absolutely is the government's money. We put it in, and elected them to allocate it.

The people have spoken man, that's all there is to it. On some level I know you understand this. You are just going to have to cope with the fact that you cannot control how tax dollars are spent. It's part of living in a democracy.

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Poster: Finster Baby Date: Nov 8, 2012 7:06am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forget ObamaCare -- Let's just rely on ambulances and emergency rooms!

ok. We will just have to agree to disagree.
If we can't even agree on the basic premise that it is our money that the government is spending and not the government's money, and that as citizens we have a right to expect that the government only spend that money on things that the constitution says they can spend it on, there probably isn't much we are going to agree on politically. So, before this ends up in a cat fight (as political disagreements often do), lets just end here and agree to disagree.

Here is something i think we can both agree on....
A tasty TDIH compliments of Ken and Judy Lee.

http://archive.org/details/gd1970-11-08.aud.lee.pcrp.26975.shnf

Peace

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Poster: snow_and_rain Date: Nov 8, 2012 10:42am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forget ObamaCare -- Let's just rely on ambulances and emergency rooms!

It's our money either way. As it is, hospitals do not turn away the uninsured for urgent care. Who pays for that? All of us.

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Poster: Mandojammer Date: Nov 8, 2012 10:51am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forget ObamaCare -- Let's just rely on ambulances and emergency rooms!

Actually it's not money. All money in the money supply has been loaned into existence in the form of sovereign debt.

But you knew I was going to say that and it doesn't have anything to do with your conversation so I'll shut up and withdraw.

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Poster: Skobud Date: Nov 8, 2012 7:25am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forget ObamaCare -- Let's just rely on ambulances and emergency rooms!

Agreed. No worries man.

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Poster: JackDog Date: Nov 7, 2012 12:28pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forget ObamaCare -- Let's just rely on ambulances and emergency rooms!

People like you would get taken seriously if you were as upset about runaway military and intelligence spending as you are about Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid. I'll bet that you didn't say a thing while Dubya was running up our debt and having deficits every single year. And you are not an Independent. You may like to tell yourself and other people that, but you're just another republican.

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Poster: Finster Baby Date: Nov 8, 2012 3:53am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forget ObamaCare -- Let's just rely on ambulances and emergency rooms!

I would take you more seriously if you would stick to talking about what your beliefs are and not try to tell me what my beliefs are.
You would have no way of knowing that I believe we spend way too much on unnecessary military programs, that we spend way too much time and resources being the policemen of the world, or that I am what most people would consider a wingnut for believing that we should close every military base around the world excluding those on US soil. But, please continue to tell me what my beliefs are anyway.
We are making progress though. At least you didn't insult me this time because you disagree with me.

All that aside, you do understand that military spending is something that the federal government is authorized to do under the constitution, whereas social spending is not. You do realize the difference don't you?

As for me being a republican...that is laughable. I'm too conservative for the republicans to want me or my ilk.
Republicans are no more conservative than democrats anymore.
Their agendas are different, but their means of achieving those agenda's are the same. More spending and bigger government = more power!

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Poster: Mandojammer Date: Nov 8, 2012 9:38am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forget ObamaCare -- Let's just rely on ambulances and emergency rooms!

Shit.....I believe we spend way too much on NECESSARY military programs and I've been in the belly of that beast for 33 years.

I also believe we spend too much on every other line item in the discretionary and mandatory portions of the budget. The only difference is the degree at which I would cut each line item. Some would die, some would get pruned.

And I am more conservative than you. When I look left the only person I see is Genghis Khan.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Nov 7, 2012 3:53pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forget ObamaCare -- Let's just rely on ambulances and emergency rooms!

Ya know, JD, if we took ~ half the bucks going towards equipment that would ONLY really be useful in fighting the "last war" (ie, Cold War), that is TOTALLY unnecessary given the v different "threats" (overstated IMHO) faced by the US today, we could fund EVERYTHING ever considered in the most excessive welfare state...education, health; everything.

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Poster: micah6vs8 Date: Nov 7, 2012 4:20pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forget ObamaCare -- Let's just rely on ambulances and emergency rooms!

I agree that the those who preach fiscal discipline do not often couple the domestic cuts with the cuts that effectively would end most of the American Empire and the infrastructure that maintains it. As with all of it, if we spend beyond what we are able, the whole enchilada is going to come down ugly and quick. Best sort out what we value and how, and cut loose the rest. However, we don't have such a good track record as a country when facing that question. Things seem to have to become untenable for us to face the reality.

>we could fund EVERYTHING

I do not that is possible in any society, ever- or at least for very long.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Nov 7, 2012 5:46pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forget ObamaCare -- Let's just rely on ambulances and emergency rooms!

Oh yeah, way overstated there, but you get the idea...we (Arizona in particular) REALLY love our defense spending, and as you and I both are well aware, some of these "big ticket items" just really aren't going to be all that useful in the upcoming conflicts (IMveryHO, as it's a real guess of course...and like FB & MJ point out, there are some v real problems with administrating a welfare state, untoward effects, blah, blah, blah).

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Poster: Mandojammer Date: Nov 8, 2012 9:41am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forget ObamaCare -- Let's just rely on ambulances and emergency rooms!

Interesting tidbit of data driven info for you PM.

Two questions from the following scenario:

If you instantaneously eliminated deficit spending (either as a matter of practice or Constitutional Amendment) AND then you applied 1 (one) QE stimulus package each year (round it to $750 BILLION) solely to retire the debt AND you left Social Security untouched:

1. How long would it take to retire the debt?
2. How much would you need to cut the remaining budget line items to support this approach?

You will find your answer to why it is nearly mathematically impossible to solve our fiscal and economic predicament.

Remember, problems have solutions. Predicaments only have outcomes.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Nov 8, 2012 10:27am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forget ObamaCare -- Let's just rely on ambulances and emergency rooms!

Got an easy one: will consider that when one & all realize we must make age for SS & medaid PRECISELY proportional to what it was when adopted (ie, inc by 5 yrs due inc in longevity)...good to go!

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Poster: Mandojammer Date: Nov 8, 2012 10:47am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forget ObamaCare -- Let's just rely on ambulances and emergency rooms!

Here's the answer because I didn't really expect anyone to do the math.

1. 20 years

Here's the kicker.

2. 80%. EVERY single budget line item (less Social Security) would need to be cut by 80%.

Cue the fat lady with the viking hat.....

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Poster: William Tell Date: Nov 8, 2012 11:39am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forget ObamaCare -- Let's just rely on ambulances and emergency rooms!

Ha!

But, to restate the obvious, it is amazing though how ALL aspects of future budget woes do go away, LITERALLY, if you inc the age for SS/medc a few yrs (seriously--this is the EASY math).

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Poster: Mandojammer Date: Nov 8, 2012 11:52am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Forget ObamaCare -- Let's just rely on ambulances and emergency rooms!

All aspects of SS future budget woes go away. Increasing the SS age to 187 doesn't do anything in the long run if we continue to run deficit budgets.

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